Guidance Community Discussion Space

Note my message on the next level up, that this list is now wildly out of date and only usable as a model of how websites might be categorised as contributing to guidance outcomes (using the DOTS model in this case). I have no resources to update the list nor access to the page to take it down,(this also illustrates the need to note the date last reviewed on a web page!)

but a related list is also available at http://www.careersoft.co.uk/mainpage.htm developed by Careersoft from my original DOTSMARKS list, and aimed at practitioners working with young people. They are now responsible for updating and maintaining it.

The point of such a list is to demonstrate the need to relate, and possiblity of relating, web-based and ICT-based resources to the outcomes we wish to achieve in guidance, in order to justify using them in certain contexts in preference to other resources: it is not axiomatic that one should always use an ICT-based resource if something else would deliver the same outcome more effectively or efficiently, and unless you identify the outcomes the ICT-based resource are intended to deliver, how can you decide whether to use them or not? This leads on to the point that the use or non-use of ICT/Web-based resources in guidance, is a guidance issue, not a technical issue and requires guidance skills, not technical skills in the first instance - using the Web does not excuse one from applying the same professional guidance skills and knowledge one uses to select resources in other media!!

Marcus Offer, NICEC

Please note that my list of web sites on www.guidanceforum.net has not been updated for a couple of years and should only be used as a model of the approach to analysis and catgorisation of web sites against guidance outcomes: many of the links are now dead or better replaced by more up to date ones. I have no resources at present to maintain this page.

A related list is also accessible at http://www.careersoft.co.uk/mainpage.htm (and click on Webliinks from the left hand side menu, where Careersoft have taken over an earlier version of my DOTSMARKS list, and adapted it for use with younger people.

Marcus Offer

While this project has some very useful things to say, I do not feel that it necessarily gets to the bottom of what it means to use the web for guidance purposes: the ethical considerations are important but do not specifically identify how the actual design of a web site for careers guidance would differ in ways that reflect guidance principles. In other words, the Ariadne project as a whole seems to have collected a number of general principles about good web site/page design but they apply to more or less any use of the web, not specifcally to guidance. This is a common failing of such research (particularly at a European level, where the UK is actually ahead of other EU countries in its use of ICT in guidance and lowest common denominator factors prevail as a result). By contrast the second part of "Report on the CSU/NICEC Careers Service Web site design project 2001-2003" (Offer, M.S., 2003, Graduate Prospects, Manchester) and chapters in "Careers Services: Technology and the Future" (Offer, M, Sampson, J.P. Jr., and Watts, A.G., CSU, Manchester, 2001, directly address the actual guidance issues in detail and in ways that are more explicitly testable by research (e.g into usability of the templates developed in the former case or the practicality of the principles enunicated in the latter). Too often, it seems to me, we are in danger of overlooking how much practical experience we have in the UK to draw on in this field, especially in the area of HE careers services' use of the web and related technologies in the last few years! See also the documents filed in the resources section of this part of the NGRF.

Marcus Offer, NICEC.

This comment of Lucy Marris's needs to be supplemented by reading some of the material contained in the "resources" sub-section here. There is very significant experience of the use of email services generally in the UK: Not only do organisations such as Connexions Direct and Learn Direct deliver a number of services via this and related media, but Graduate Prospects has run a service for graduates nationally for several years, with tens of thousands of enquirers and has considerable experience to draw on. They have recently developed locally customnised faciltiies for university careers services to offer a similar email service to their own current students. The two key references are

1} Madahar,L. (2003) "Services for Graduates: A National Career Development Service for Graduates", Manchester, Graduate Prospects and

2) Madahar, L. and Offer, M. (2004) "Managing E-Guidance Interventions withing HE Careers Services", Manchester, Graduate Prospect.

A debate on the issues surfaced in Newscheck, October/November 2003 and February-May 2004 with initial short pieces by Marris, Reid and Madahar, taking opposite sides of the argument, and letters by Offer and Freeman, in the February-May 2004 issue (page 6).

The HECSU briefings "What is E-gudiance?" and "A checklist for advisers" cited in the Resources section of this part of the forum also take the debate further! I am particuarly keen to receive feedback from those with experience, on the latter, as a document on best practice in email guidance. I hope to develop this in future as a kind of "open source" documment that can be based on the growing experience of all those invovled in this new field

Other links - including links to executive summaries of the reports listed above, can be made from the NICEC web site e.g.

http://www.crac.org.uk/nicec/fellows/offer.htm and

http://www.crac.org.uk/nicec/research/archived_research/research_completed.htm

Marcus Offer

It may be more helpful for practitioners and those beginning research to read accounts that are specific to guidance. There are two main source for this:

1] Higgins, R. & Westergaard, J.(1998):"In Search of Guidance Models for the group context" Occasional Papers in Careers Guidance No 2: a collection of professional papers by the staff of the College of Guidance Studies: Stourbridge, Institute of Careers Guidance

2] Gothard, B., Mignot, P., Offer, M.S., Ruff,M.(2001): "Careers Guidance in Context", Chapter 4: "Group Work: Guidance in a group setting", London, Sage.

These two sources are about the only ones I know of that directly address the issues of group work in guidance specifically, rather than offering models from elsewhere that are not so easy to apply to a careers work or guidance context because developed for other reasons in other professional settings. Both these sources, however, take account of wider theories - e.g. theories of adult learning, and of personal construct psychology, for example.

Marcus Offer, NICEC.

If you are, or work with people who are wishing to pursue ethical careers in science and technology, then you might be interested in this website. From the site you can download a variety of resources including a booklet 'An ethical career in science and technology' and briefings such as 'Your Career and Sustainable Development'go to www.sgr.org.uk/ethics.html to access the most recent briefings.

I've just been made aware of a new web site which advisers and students may find useful. It's still under development and has been set up by the Council for Mathematical Sciences. However, it still offers some useful pointers, including on job search, career profiles and further study - I browsed the section on undergraduates. Try the site at www.mathscareers.org.uk

I'm not aware of many other sites that are subject specific in this way apart from the excellent languages works site http://www.languageswork.org.uk/ are there any others out there users can recommend?

I am looking for research on: what government policies with in scotland

reflects the current government policies to promote social inclusion and

life long learning?

I would like to know if anyone using this site can provide me with examples of strategies, tools and techniques they are currently using to assess the impact of guidance?

Hi

I have been recent visitor to the website and sent the following email to the administrator re posting replies. I received two very encouraging email replies both stating that the website is for practitioners and to respond to any items as we feel appropriate and in a way which we are most comfortable. Perhaps more people might feel encouraged to join in.

>Can you help? The website is very intersting and there lots of

>interesting articles and discussions which you can dip into or read in

>depth where you have more time or are particularly interested in a topic.

> I was interested in a number of the discussion comments and papers which

>were posted but I felt a bit hesitant about contributing a comment which

>was not 'academic' enough. Would it be preferable if comments were of an

>'academic' nature or can we as practitioners contribute our thoughts,

>comments etc onthe discussion topics as we feel. Unless you are actively

>involved in research it can be difficult to find the time to produce an

>in-depth response.

>I think the website is a great resource - it helps to keep up with the

>latest research which challenges and informs my current practice.

>thanks

>Christine McConnell

I wonder whether the questions have the feel of an exam. Maybe we should start a discussion that touches on some of these issues - then others may feel easier about contributing.

For information on occupational areas and the issues facing the Scottish economy try the FutureSkills Scotland web site link through the Careers Scotland web site: http://www.careers-scotland.org.uk./careersscotland/web/site/Home/home.asp

Janet Moffett

University of Paisley

One issue that interests me is the extent to which individuals can learn from work experience, and what they might learn. Recently esect (Enhancing Student Employability Co-ordination Team) together with The Higher Education Academy produced a guide on 'Employability and work-based learning' which is downloadable from the LTSN Site.

In this publication the authors (Brenda Little and ESECT colleagues) explore the learning that a student can gain from work experience. They use the term 'work-based learning' to mean learning that is derived specifically from doing a job of work and taking on a workplace role.

I feel that work experience is potentially contentious, and would be interested to hear other perspectives on its value, and recommendations of any published research that looks into the area, perhaps with a more critical stance. For example, in relation to young people in schools I understand there is evidence that suggests it can actucally reinforce occupational stereotpying by gender, and is often viewed as a 'taster' for a particular occupational area rather than an opportunity for more expansive reflective learning. I remember asking a young person what they thought they'd gained from their mandatory 2 weeks in employment whilst in KS4 'to put up and shut up' was their insightful reply! Does this perspective resonate with anyone else?

Users might already be familiar with the Skill Website www.skill.org.uk - a link is included in the resources list above. However, it might be helpful to know that the site includes a range of information booklets for disabled students, trainees and jobseekers, including one on the topic on whether or not, how and when to disclose any disability to a potential employer. I found these to be a useful resource for Careers Advisers too, as it isn't an area in which I feel especially confident giving advice.

Elsewhere on the site are some student case studies where individuals talk about their experiences of university life which gave me some insight into the issues faced by the students concerned, and the particular skills and creativity that they employed to address them - food for thought!

The information booklets are at: http://www.skill.org.uk/info/infosheets.asp

The case studies are at: http://www.skill.org.uk/info/case_studies/index.asp

Users of this part of the site might also be interested in this website which was developed by the Careers and Student Employment section of the University of Westminster. I think its of particular interest because it includes along with the 'usual suspects' women, mature students, students with disabilities and so on, a section on class issues and students with previous convictions. It is aimed at students themselves, rather than a practitioner resource, but I think there is much to be learned from it. Have any other users come across similarly innovative websites dealing with equal opportunities that we could share here?

http://www.wmin.ac.uk/main.asp?page=886

I'm suprised at the lack of a catagory on scientific research in the LMI trends - can anyone explain its absence? I'm not sure that it fits into any of those already posted.

The findings from all the TLRP workplace learning project will become available from the TLRP website, and they could be pointed to from here. It might be possible to start some discussions about particular papers or articles using either the comment or discussion facilities.

See, for example, the journal article 'Learning as Apprentices in the Contemporary UK Workplace: creating and managing expansive and restrictive participation' by Alison Fuller and Lorna Unwin

Publication Date: Dec-2003

Publication: Journal of Education and Work

full contents viewable from: http://www.tlrp.org/dspace/handle/123456789/39

Wider discussion is invited on the author’s observations that:

there is suspicion of why data on impact is being collected

evidence is seen as something to be manipulated

such imposed activities take time and resources away from the real work which needs to be done.

This was an observation made by a participant in a discussion during the developmental stage of this website.

I decided to venture outside of guidance to a sector where there is many a common thread and shared ambition, and a shared experience of restructure and new funding models. Having stepped out of the comfort zone-the guidance community, I was pleasantly surprised by what I found. Indeed I was inspired by a community where the value for money debate is raging but there is very commitment to developing a toolkit, with adverse range of tools to provide clear evidence of benefits. There is much to be learnt from our colleagues in the Museums and Libraries sector. Inspiring Learning for All, however, also asks museums, archives and libraries to look beyond the formal learning context and to assess the impact they have on their informal learners and visitors. In many cases these comprise the majority of their users. Inspiring Learning for All endeavours to embrace all the requirements of these diverse institutions and practitioners. However it is not assumed that every action and evidence statement will be core to all museums, archives and libraries. It is designed to encourage every museum, archive and library to question what they do, why they do it and to assess their effectiveness.

"Inspiring Learning for All" asks museums, archives and libraries to look beyond the formal learning context and to assess the impact they have on their informal learners and visitors. In many cases these comprise the majority of their users. Inspiring Learning for All endeavours to embrace all the requirements of these diverse institutions and practitioners. However it is not assumed that every action and evidence statement will be core to all museums, archives and libraries. It is designed to encourage every museum, archive and library to question what they do, why they do it and to assess their effectiveness against what is widely agreed to be best practice. "If this has whet your appetite have a look at the Resource website. http://www.resource.gov.uk

This is a contribution made by an participant in discussions during the development of the website

The challenges and complexities facing the guidance community in trying to measure and evaluate the effectiveness of guidance are not unique. Other disciplines involving human interaction, such as medicine and social welfare, face similar challenges and difficulties in evaluating the effectiveness of practice. For example, when a patient "gets better" following treatment, how do we know he/she wouldn't have recovered any way, by a process of self-healing; and if "getting better" really was linked to the intervention, how do we know that it was the direct effect of the treatment itself rather than the psychology of the placebo effect? Similarly, if an unemployed adult successfully returns to work following guidance, how do we know that this outcome would not have happened any way; how do we know that such an individual didn't already have a level of motivation that both inspired him/her to seek out support in the first place, and led the individual to proactively seek employment?

If the research complexities facing disciplines involved in human interaction are similar, then so too are many of the methodological solutions, or attempted solutions. For example, we know that a feature of much medical research, and of some guidance research, involves the use of an "experimental group" (patients/subjects/clients who get the drug/treatment/intervention) who are then compared with a "control group" (those who are similar to the experimental group in most respects except that they don`t get the drug/treatment/intervention). Unfortunately, for both disciplines there are often ethical and practical difficulties with the use of control and experimental groups. As a result, other techniques have to be used such as making comparisons between large-scale population samples, the so-called "control by calculation" technique. For example, it is tempting to speculate that the large scale collection of data relating to the outcomes of "enhanced services", recently implemented by the LSC, will be used in this way.

In order to explore the similarities between impact research within the medical and guidance fields, and to assess what, if anything, the guidance community can learn from this, the School of Health, Education and Science at Derby University has been approached to identify one of their colleagues to join us in our on-line discussions.

In the meantime though, do any of our guidance colleagues have any comments on what we might learn from other research disciplines? Are the comparisons valid and could they help us arrive at new and more effective impact methodologies, or at least a better understanding of the issues involved? Or could it be a bit of a wild goose chase, or a methodological cul de sac? What do you think?